Article 85011 of comp.fonts:
From: simonm
Newsgroups: comp.fonts
Subject: Re: Officina Sans-A bigger Debate
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:53:03 +0000
Organization: HHCL
Message-ID: <36A32098.A1CFD744@hhcl.com>
References: <369bd32d.22647543@news.telebyte.nl> <02Rm2.527$r%4.732@news21.bellglobal.com> <369FD842.C16B8AD3@xxx.de> <36A0A4E9.D9042746@YandY.com>
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Ok, Mr Apostrophe. (very brave, by the way, to hide behind such a lovely typo-name) I've read you eloquent if slightly over anarchy-led pscho-babble and since Monotype has been mentioned I feel you should also be made aware of people such as F.A.S.T. (Federation against software theft) Although I'm sure you must know of them, you seem to think you know everything else.
Yes indeed Mr Apostrophe these lovely people will come to your business if they have reason to think that you are profiting from illegal software use. Yes it is true Mr Apostrophe that they are unlikely to visit your bedroom, study, back room where a PC is housed, humming away over the hours you spend hammering out this vitriolic 'freedom to the font collector' keyboard-rythm.
They have little interest in you Mr Apostrophe, the home user. Little time will be lost contemplating your involvement in wide-spread type copyright infringement. Mr Apostrophe you are possibly safe from their 'evil clutches.' You see Mr Apostrophe they are interested in the large companies, using Illegal Quark/Freehand/Photoshops using bundles of illegal unpaid for typefaces. Yes you see Mr Apostrophe, these typefaces are software too. Ahh yes, and there have been some very fruity typo-court cases here in the UK. Where those unaware of the 'font-police' soon became experts as they were fined a proportion of the profits made using these unpaid for services. (Oh, the Achilles-type in question was on paper, designed and printed by the company, and found on their hard disk. If they had been simply 'collecting' they could not have been touched, but a previous repro house had been raided a week earlier, and they type had been linked to the company via a design credit in the printed document, in this case a book)
So while your relative un-touch-ability may give you comfort, and indeed add false power to your battery of 'knowledge' I would look a little closer at WHY they choose not to pursue you, the crumbs from the giants table.
Perhaps because you are simply not worth it. They are after the media attention big 'typo-busts' will give them from attacking companies who make their millions through denying others measly portions of their over inflated profits. These companies are then black listed and exposed in the press, just as fraudsters often are. We do all love a good read Mr Apostrophe.
How would you feel Mr Apostrophe, if one of your lengthy articles posted here, was to appear as a lead story in TIME magazine for example. If it was attributed to another author. If the false author was given praise, financial reward and respect. How would you feel, if you heard this ghost writer sing proudly that this kind of thing was cool, 'man', because hey, he can get away with it, the courts can't touch him. Screw the originator, tough luck to the creative spirit, If your sharp enough you can squeeze them dry.
Wonderful
So you know a typedesign takes talent. So shouldn't that talent be rewarded? The foundry is a middle man, sure, but you try Mr Apostrophe, to find time in your day, amongst trying to create more new options for typographers and designers, to collect orders market new types send off types via disk, isdn, e-mail, update the web page, do the tax return, invoice, go to the printers etc etc.
I'd rather employ them to do this, leaving me to do what I enjoy. The creation. They are there, after all, for a reason. Because we need them. They offer a valuable tool. They enable us to Design, while they distribute it. A book publisher gets a similar ride. (Mr Apostrophe see also: Music, Film) Take the product, wrap and send. They create nothing, but they enable others to get at it, while allowing the author to receive his/her well deserved rewards. Through royalties.
But you go ahead, in your mind you'll always be right. Relax in the knowledge that you are likely to remain small-fry, out of their (chosen) reach.
Simon Manchipp
Head of Graphics
HHCL+P
London
Article 85024 of comp.fonts:
From: "Apostrophe (')"
Newsgroups: comp.fonts
References: <369bd32d.22647543@news.telebyte.nl> <02Rm2.527$r%4.732@news21.bellglobal.com> <369FD842.C16B8AD3@xxx.de> <36A0A4E9.D9042746@YandY.com>
Subject: Re: Officina Sans-A bigger Debate
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:12:58 GMT
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simonm wrote in message <36A32098.A1CFD744@hhcl.com>... Ok, Mr Apostrophe. (very brave, by the way, to hide behind such a lovely typo-name)
Picture beheld, Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics. I
I've read you eloquent if slightly over anarchy-led pscho-babble and since Monotype has been mentioned I feel you should also be made aware of people such as F.A.S.T. (Federation against software theft) Although I'm sure you must know of them, you seem to think you know everything else.
F.A.S.T. I was wondering who would be the first to mention them. You did the honors, Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics. Here we go.
Yes indeed Mr Apostrophe these lovely people will come to your business if they have reason to think that you are profiting from illegal software use. Yes it is true Mr Apostrophe that they are unlikely to visit your bedroom, study, back room where a PC is housed, humming away over the hours you spend hammering out this vitriolic 'freedom to the font collector' keyboard-rythm.
Replay: these people will come to your business if they have reason to think that you. The last time I heard of a federation coming to someone's business just because they have reason to think that someone is doing something they don't like was probably in a classic novel called 1984 (Geroge Orwell -- also read Animal Farm by the same author, it relates very much to what's been happening in the software industry for the last decade or so). Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics, in the part of the world where I live, there is something called due process. Reason to think is the very heart of the anarchy that you seem to be so generous in accusing people with.
They have little interest in you Mr Apostrophe, the home user. Little time will be lost contemplating your involvement in wide-spread type copyright infringement. Mr Apostrophe you are possibly safe from their 'evil clutches.'
Little interest, huh? And how did you come to believe that, Simon Manchipp? Why would is that that you van blieve that the home user is of little interest to the federation? If you think that the home user is not worthy of corporate attention, then I certainly hope we somehow get more people to think like you do. But please take off the blindfold. It is sad when you open your eyes and see the truth bigger than life in front of you, isn't it? The kid whose self-esteem was shattered and outlook on life rendered bleak by Emigre, was he or was he not a home user? Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics, nice-sounding combinations of words can be very easily recited, but I subscribe to the goold old saying a picture speaks a thousand words. If we turn your words into pictures, what do we end up with? Scenes of legalised home invasion? Invasion of privacy based on suspicion? Big Brother?
You see Mr Apostrophe they are interested in the large companies, using Illegal Quark/Freehand/Photoshops using bundles of illegal unpaid for typefaces. Yes you see Mr Apostrophe, these typefaces are software too. Ahh yes, and there have been some very fruity typo-court cases here in the UK. Where those unaware of the 'font-police' soon became experts as they were fined a proportion of the profits made using these unpaid for services. (Oh, the Achilles-type in question was on paper, designed and printed by the company, and found on their hard disk. If they had been simply 'collecting' they could not have been touched, but a previous repro house had been raided a week earlier, and they type had been linked to the company via a design credit in the printed document, in this case a book)
Your words actually encourage collecting fonts for the purpose of collecting fonts. That is contrast with your earlier accusations. But on the home user issue, why would you believe that the home user is of little interest to the software corporations? Does the moral of this go something like this: Money begets money, and so it goes? If so, it doesn't say much for humanity in terms of consideration. Please post examples of the fruity typo-court cases here in the UK to back up your argument. I haven't heard of anything like that, and until I see facts I will dismiss your statement for false propaganda.
So while your relative un-touch-ability may give you comfort, and indeed add false power to your battery of 'knowledge' I would look a little closer at WHY they choose not to pursue you, the crumbs from the giants table.
Nice painting there, Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics.
Perhaps because you are simply not worth it. They are after the media attention big 'typo-busts' will give them from attacking companies who make their millions through denying others measly portions of their over inflated profits. These companies are then black listed and exposed in the press, just as fraudsters often are. We do all love a good read Mr Apostrophe.
This is why corporate principle has been vilified over the years. What you are talking about is outright brainwashing and employing technique of fear on the people without their consent. Big typo-busts? Which? Please post examples. Emigre vs some kid? That's where the media attention was here. Remember that this is an internationally accessed forum here. If you don't back your argument with universal fact, people all over the world would have the right to laugh at you until dawn.
How would you feel Mr Apostrophe, if one of your lengthy articles posted here, was to appear as a lead story in TIME magazine for example. If it was attributed to another author. If the false author was given praise, financial reward and respect. How would you feel, if you heard this ghost writer sing proudly that this kind of thing was cool, 'man', because hey, he can get away with it, the courts can't touch him. Screw the originator, tough luck to the creative spirit, If your sharp enough you can squeeze them dry.
I'd be flattered that my work could actually such a combination of things to happen. At least I've done somebody some good. Learn to move on. It is RIGHT to earn your money through work. You can apply your example to people who actually sell fonts which they did not make, like Monotype for a good example. By your equation, how did Zapf feel the first time he saw Book Antiqua? They did get to say: this kind of thing was cool, 'man', because hey, we can get away with it, the courts can't touch us, didn't they. Your argument strikes a chord far away from this discussion. We are talking about collecting fonts. Nowhere did I say that someone's work should freely be attributed to someone else. The second time words are being put in my mouth in here. You, Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics, have a great looming concept about piracy and the great old way of handling it, and all you're doing is applying your concept to every logical argument you see about type copyright. One would probably be justified in thinking that you may not have a valid argument, otherwise why would you twist people's statements around?
Wonderful So you know a typedesign takes talent. So shouldn't that talent be rewarded? The foundry is a middle man, sure, but you try Mr Apostrophe, to find time in your day, amongst trying to create more new options for typographers and designers, to collect orders market new types send off types via disk, isdn, e-mail, update the web page, do the tax return, invoice, go to the printers etc etc.
Hey! You can possibly expect people to be sympathetic with that, do you? Running a foundry are just a job like every other one. If you were to expect me to sympathise with what you just said, then in return I'd expect you to sympathise with someone whining about having to work at a construction company which causes their body to ache all over, whining about how many bills they have to pay and asking for those bills to be paid by someone else. Life is hard work. Foundries cannot expect life to be any different than it applies to other people. The guy who single handedly built a complete wall of a church in Mexico twenty years ago is not trying to generate money noew from what he did then. If you expect people to grin at the foundries who want to free-load just because they have to use the fax machine or collect orders or start a new marketing method then you are posing a serious insult to people's intelligence.
I'd rather employ them to do this, leaving me to do what I enjoy. The creation. They are there, after all, for a reason. Because we need them. They offer a valuable tool. They enable us to Design, while they distribute it. A book publisher gets a similar ride. (Mr Apostrophe see also: Music, Film) Take the product, wrap and send. They create nothing, but they enable others to get at it, while allowing the author to receive his/her well deserved rewards. Through royalties.
Well deserved by whose definitions? Well deserved by whose legal contract? By what numbers? Look at Margo Chase, Michel Bujardet and Ray Larabie, who never employed a foundry. These are very solid designers who don't want anything to do with a big time foundry. The word royalties sounds much better than the way residuals actually work. Do you think that if Ray Larabie were to sell his fonts through Monotype, he'd have a better deal? There are many people out there sending money to Ray Larabie out of appreciation for his art., who refuse to pay the foundries a single stone because of the way they take advantage of the designers. Ever wonder why many designers out there don't want anything to do with foundries? Please ask around and get back to me.
But you go ahead, in your mind you'll always be right. Relax in the knowledge that you are likely to remain small-fry, out of their (chosen) reach.
Simon Manchipp, Head of Graphics, you are giving me your blessing to go ahead and do what? From what I understood earlier, you're claiming that I hearld software piracy when I collect fonts. Being a small-fry is not enough for many standards. Some people do it in secret because others are not willing to let them do what they do in peace. Just think of all the pride font collectors are giving the designers. In the end, the heart of this discussion is about the freedom to practice a harmless hobby.